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3) Watch the video below (it's a bit more than 9 minutes), and post your response as a comment on this message: Is modern America characterized by a "lack of concern for the truth," as Frankfurt posits? Is bs a manifestation of this lack?


 


Comments

Danny Gifford
02/12/2011 17:09

I don't know if I would characterize "America" as a nation filled with bullshitters, nor would I say that it's an increasingly large phenomenon. In everyday social interactions and relationships, people aren't necessarily trying to sell something (perhaps themselves, but that's a little bit of a stretch), so I don't think that bullshit is such a pervasive issue in that sense. It is pervasive in regard to advertisement and promotion. I wouldn't say that bullshit is a "complete lack of concern for the truth," but rather just a company's prioritization of truth one step below its profit. What matters most to any salesman is making a profit, and while outright lies may not be the most effective pathway, absolute truth might not work well either.
I think, however, that a capitalist, democratic society can also be a sort of self-check for bullshit. Competition naturally holds back on bullshit a little bit, since corporations, political candidates, etc. can't get away with evading the truth without their integrity being challenged by competitors or opponents.
For example, in Hosni Mubarak's dictatorship, he "won" every election with 99% of the vote, something that would never happen in a democracy.
I also think that bullshit has been around and been prominent since the begin of civilization, so to say that it is a new problem, or one that poses a unique threat to America is a little bit ridiculous.

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Josh Garvin
02/13/2011 07:55

I think that America is less interested in the truth and more interested in what is best for them at that moment. I think that this issue has been around for decades, especially in politics and advertisements but that it is continually growing in our society. This makes me think of people like Rush Limbaugh who come up with absurd statements that they pass off as truth to try to get higher rating, but then this information spreads as fact among those that agree with him. I think that many people in our society has come to care very little about the truth and facts and it is part of what is making civil discussions about our country's future so hard.

And yes i completely think that bullshitting has partially filled the void of truth. I know that i have had teachers that have encouraged us to come up with some cleaver bullshit on tests, yes she called it bullshit, if we dont know the answer because we may get some points for it. I think that this somewhat expends to the rest of the the application of bullshit in that if you get some part of the topic right, even if only by luck, you can at least sound like you know what you are talking about and that is sometimes all that counts.

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Annie Humphrey
02/13/2011 11:04

If I were to actually answer this question, my response itself would be complete bullshit; I don't feel like I know enough about America or America's past to say that BS or a "lack of concern for the truth" are more prominent than they used to be. Sure, advertisements and politics are filled with bullshit, but how would I know whether or not these parts of our society were always full of bullshit? As Frankfurt said at around six minutes, "...the tendency to bullshit is encouraged...by the fact that it's a widespread view in a democratic society that a responsible citizen ought to have an opinion about everything. Well you can't know very much about everything and so your opinions are likely to be based upon bullshit."

That being said, I actually think that bullshit helps promote thought in SOME circumstances. Last year especially, I had to write a lot of English/history papers, and I would have no idea what to write about, so finally I would just start with a really vague thesis that was complete BS. But then I would actually find evidence to support the thesis until it became coherent and was no longer bullshit. If I had been scared to BS my papers initially, they would have been very boring and unoriginal. However, when BS doesn't make that transition into something that makes sense, then it is unproductive and probably damaging to society.

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Sammie Levin
02/13/2011 11:22

I think that America lacks concern for the truth in the sense that our society tends to gravitate toward scandal and controversy, so in many cases people and the media will distort the truth or not believe the truth for the sake of creating a more "juicy" story or situation--for example, the claims that Obama is lying about his religious background. Like Danny said though, I do not think this is a new problem exactly, especially in the media and advertisements...advertising has never been centered on truth because the whole point is to emphasize the positive aspects of a product so the absolute truth is not going to be presented.

I do think that academic bullshit that Josh mentioned is an increasing problem in our modern society, however. Students today are put under more pressure to achieve, so some students will focus more on getting the good grade than actually learning, which leads to bullshitting for the sake of completing work.

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Daniel Fuchs
02/13/2011 11:45

I'm not so sure that it is a societal problem, because I think it isn't as common amongst very close personal relationships (friends and family). Where bullshit is more common is within the media and occasionally within academic life, as Josh put it. Shows on Fox News and MSNBC are full of bullshit, using fake facts and altered data--as well as completely unsubstantiated claims--to attempt to prove a point. Reality television is just the opposite--that, perhaps, is completely bullshit. In terms of academic life, on days when I have a particularly large amount of homework, the quality of the actual work goes down because I'm not able to spend as much time thinking about what I'm doing.

This is definitely a growing problem in these two areas, because people care less about the truth as ratings go up in the media and people focus more on higher education. Bullshit, I think, hasn't necessarily arisen because people care less about the truth, but simply care MORE about certain other things, like ratings and college.

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Josh Kruskal
02/13/2011 14:44

I would disagree with the claim that modern America is characterized by a lack of concern for the truth. In fact, I would go on to say that it is difficult to be characterized by a lack of anything. Yes, it is undeniable that modern America is filled with instances of people being untruthful and deceitful, but I think this is more a reflection on the negative aspects of human nature than it is on America as a society.

I think Frankfurt’s claim that BS is a manifestation of a lack of concern for the truth is valid to a very certain point. Lying and being deceitful are not always “bad things”- human behavior is rarely entirely on one side of some hypothetical ethical divide, but instead we tend to place ourselves somewhere on a spectrum. We accept that things aren’t black and white, and that shades of gray are an inevitability given the complexity of modern social life.

BS is a feature of modern discourse, but is does not deserve the attention Frankfurt gives it. Yes, people lie- some people could care less about the truth, but this isn’t part of some grand societal phenomenon or anything worth getting worked up over.

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Ari Ebstein
02/13/2011 15:00

I really like Annie's point: What I'm about to do is, to a point, bullshitting an answer. I don't think 16 years in Newton and a 10 minute video make me some kind of expert on the pervasiveness of half-truth/bullshit in American society, but in answering this question thoroughly and with authority I'll effectively remove these caveats. Complex issues, like the prevalence of bullshit in American cultural life, can only be explained without bullshit if you're really an expert on the matter. What we should do instead of trying in vain to get rid of inevitable bullshit is working harder to distinguish between good analysis and unsubstantiated, unqualified explanations. Bullshit will always exist; the question is whether we as a society lend the same credence to trained experts as average joes.

I think it's getting worse in America because are living (in the broader, historical sense) in a more capitalistic and democratic society than ever before. With increasingly triangulated politics and markets, the clarification of everyman bullshit and erudite advice disappears. The capitalist motto "the customer is always right" is essentially mirrored by the democratic presumption "the voter is always right". We need to work harder to remove the credibility of everyone's opinion on every issue. Some people have opinions that, on some fields of expertise, are better than others. We'll never remove bullshit, but we can remove its influence.

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Danny Yang
02/13/2011 15:43

I agree with the statement that today in America, there is a growing lack of concern for the truth. As we move towards a technological era, a lot of the traditional ideals and values that we have as Americans have been compromised. People are becoming more and more concerned with the results rather than the process. The existence of "bullshit" is a direct manifestation of Americans not caring about true or false and acting based on what benefits them the most. As Frankfurt points out, the problem here isn't ignorance; Bullshitters are fully aware that they are bullshitting and only do it so their lives are easier/better. I know that as a student, I've "bullshitted" my fair share of assignments. Usually when I do this, its because I really don't care about whether or not I believe in what I am writing about. Resorting to bullshit to saves time and produces something that looks somewhat legitimate, sacrificing truth in the process.

Obviously, I can't speak for the rest of America. On a trivial note, however, I would like to point out that Trick-or-treating has significantly gotten worse over the past few years. You can blame it on the recession, but I think the lack of Halloween spirit directly correlates to the overall lack of traditional spirit and values in America today. If nobody cares about anything but the results, bullshitting is bound to happen because its just an easier way to produce a similar result.

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Celia Kaufer
02/13/2011 17:07

In many situations I agree that America has a lack of concern for the truth. The two main situations that a bunch of people have been talking about are the media and in school settings. These two make sense to me, because if you are trying to sell something you'd obviously only want to share its best aspects. Also, especially if you don't care about what you are writing about, it's easy to just write what the teacher wants. This also correlates to what he was saying about the difference between bullshitting and lying. You could either plagiarize, or you could think of legitimate bullshit that comes from your own mind. They both seem wrong, but plagiarizing is way worse in my opinion.

I agree with what Dan said about personal relationships. In my opinion it's more important to care about the truth with family and friends, so I don't think its as common.

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Kathy Zhou
02/13/2011 17:53

I laughed at Annie's response because it is true for me at least. Whatever argument I post here will contain some vast generalizations or assumptions about American society mostly because I've never analyzed it in terms of BS. But either way, here goes:
Based on what Frankfurt says, there is a degree of bullshit in our society, but there's also outright lying. The outright lies about Obama, for example, that he is a Muslim and that he was not born in this country, are spread by people with an agenda to replace truths with lies. They are concerned for the truth, which doesn't make them bullshitters.
I feel that for academic (or at least Newton South) bullshit, some of it is caused less by a lack of concern for the truth and more of simple laziness. If students bullshit an essay or a test, it isn't always that they don't care about what the truth is. It could be that they just didn't want to go through the effort to find it.

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Rachel Leshin
02/13/2011 19:13

I completely agree with Frankfurt's claim that America has evolved into a place that places too low of a premium on the truth. I agree with Frankfurt and many of the above commenters that the growth of capitalism and the market culture have contributed to this characterization, as truth often does not sell as well as BS. I think that the pervasiveness of BS, however, extends beyond the market place and into the more general context of our lives. We live in a society in which everything is incredibly fast-paced; we are constantly trying to do and perform and achieve more and more in less and less time. All too often with this culture comes a sacrifice of quality for quantity, and in the context of knowledge, this idea manifests itself in our desire to know more things on the surface rather than to know fewer things in-depth.

I don't think I had ever really seen what I would now classify as BS until I entered high school. Since that time, however, I can say that I've encountered at least one example of BS each day. Students are constantly BSing homework and tests and papers and auditions and responsibilities-- I can't remember the last time I discussed a school assignment with someone without the word 'BS' coming up in reference to it. I think that the trend of BSing in school goes along with South students' urge to overachieve, to do the absolute most that they can even if it means sacrificing the quality of each assignment they do. I honestly think that by graduating, if South students have learned nothing else, their competitive edge has taught them how to BS effectively.

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Adam Goldstein
02/13/2011 20:16

For as long as I can remember I have not trusted most things I see on TV. Everyday I'm told that this vacuum is the most efficient, this beer is the finest, etc. The commercials provide evidence too, and given I know nothing of the beer industry, I have no information to counter whether or not Sam Adams is the beer made with the most care or the dyson ball vacuum is the most revolutionary vacuum of all time. My answer is usually to ask my dad, though he is not all knowing he has a better sense of things like this just from experience. Given this, I would say that modern America characterized by a "lack of concern for the truth." I have no idea whether that dyson ball guy has actually made it his life work to revolutionize the vacuum, it could be complete BS so I don't accept it as true. Every fact I get from any sort of media is, to some extent, in question. It's all levels of bullshit. Is this a major problem? I don't know. I can't say what life would be like without it.

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Meryl Hayes
02/13/2011 20:26

I definitely agree with Frankfurt's claim that truth is becoming less and less of a value in society. Sammie made a great point when she said that often times the distorted truth or the more juicy stories can sell better than those that are completely true. Especially from the perspective of someone in the media, often times stretching the truth can sell better than the truth itself.

In terms of academic BS, I completely agree with what Rachel said. Academic BS is something that is prevalent at South. I remember once having a conversation with someone who told me that South isn't hard if you can figure out how to BS your way through it. Sometimes, as Rachel said, students place so much value on overachieving that they have to BS assignments in order to get through all that they have to do. If anything, I think the increase of BS in the academic world comes from the increasing importance placed on overachieving.

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Justin Quinn
02/13/2011 20:59

It is difficult to categorize all of America as a society based on bullshit. There are so many different aspects to culture that it is impossible to make such a general claim. But I do agree that America is headed for a place where the truth means increasingly less.

At this point, the media is definitely full of BS. But as a society, I think we are relatively good at calling out instances where we are being deceived or manipulated with lies. And this is a positive reassurance that we are able to live in a somewhat truthful society.

We should start worrying when relationships and everyday interactions start to mimic the tricks the media uses, but I honestly don’t think we are headed in that direction. It is possible to live a truthful, honest life while still being exposed to BS in the media.

I agree with what Josh said. This issue is not as awful or pressing as Frankfurt argued.

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Amanda Sands
02/13/2011 22:01

(I wrote a response to this and then my internet got messed up and my response was lost. And now I don't remember all the stuff I said.)

The example Frankfurt gave about Kerry and Vietnam seemed to me like a red herring or maybe a non sequitur. So if that's basically what BS is then probably most people who tell BS are just ignorant of the mistake in their reasoning. Is that a lack of concern for the truth? It's certainly not purposeful.

I think if something is under the impression that they're being truthful then it's not really a "lack of concern." It's just....sort of unintelligent. So then I don't think that America is necessarily "characterized" by a that lack of concern--I just think a lot of Americans are easily persuaded by liars to accept BS as the truth. We tend to spread BS like it's the common cold. That's obviously not a great societal norm to exhibit, but it sort of reflects the sort of lies/BS people perpetuate in politics all the time.

Also I'm not sure that the United States is the only country that's guilty of BSing to horrible extremes. So would it even be significant if America WERE characterized by a lack of concern for the truth? Leaders of many countries feed their people BS for a myriad of reasons. At least in the US we're able to call out BS for being BS--in other places we might get thrown in jail for saying anything that contradicted someone else's BS.

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Hyun Seung Lee
02/13/2011 22:22

Depends, really. On what degree of truth we're discussing about here, and what type of deception is at hand.

If we base truth to be a completely empirical process solely consisting of facts, then yes, anyone who is not an expert on the matter is bullshitting. Here's the catch, though - the so-called experts are bullshitting as well. Journalists? They BS scientific discoveries all the time. Scientists? They just have a system of confirming if a certain scientist is BSing or not. And even with that, you get people who do BS occasionally. If that was the case, then yes, every single nation would be based on BS.

That being said, what we want to discuss is destructive BS - ones that are intentionally crafted in order to mislead the public. Media does that a lot, a very good example being Fox - aka Faux - News. (Arguing that a camera lens flare is one of the four horsemen of the apocalypse is a bit too much)

Is it affecting America? Yes. Is the public caring less about the truth, like Frankfurt says? Not necessarily. They don't care less. They just don't know how to tell BS apart from truth. And in that sense, BS is something completely unrelated to the people's susceptibility to truth.

When we come to academic bullshit, however, the issue is a little different. The definition of BS changes slightly. It goes from a malicious contortation of truth to an "educated guess". You really can't argue that BSing an essay is bad, when the process described as "BS" is really just logical connections of the information a person knows. That's not necessarily false, that's not necessarily harmful. It's the student's speculation which makes up this so-called "academic BS".

That being said, I agree with Josh and Justin - the issue is not pressing. The pressing issue here is the intentional deception, which is a subgroup of BSing.

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Bianca Ho
02/14/2011 00:04

I agree with Hyun-- there are many shades of bullshitting, and that's where the line starts to blur. An educated guess can also be labelled as bullshit--but it's not necessarily as wrong or as controversial as bullshitting the public.
As for whether America is characterized by bullshitting? I don't completely agree with that statement. America does have its fair share of bullshit, but I don't think it's gotten to the point where it characterizes us as a culture. Yes, it's becoming more prevalent, but it hasn't permeated every sense of life, and I don't see it as a threat to the infrastructure of life or anything like that.
I'm also not so sure that bullshit is a lack of respect for the truth...it's simply making something up, fabricating something possibly based on truths. I don't think it's anything new; it's certainly been around for a while, and it shouldn't be taken as a threat.

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Sarah Seto
02/14/2011 03:23

I mostly agree with Frankfurt's claim that there is a general lack of concern for the truth. Granted, I think it's hard to make such a huge generalization, but like Josh G said, I think it mostly comes from an interest in whatever suits people better at the time (ie what sells more products, what attracts more viewers, etc).

In some cases, I definitely think BS is a result of this lack of concern. However, bullshitting is simply a lot easier than taking the time and the conscious effort to completely flesh out an issue. I agree with what Rachel said, that the fast-paced nature of society and emphasis on overachieving also promotes students to BS.

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Rachel Schy
02/14/2011 04:14

I agree with Frankfurt's claims. America is becoming a pace where more and more people bullshit their way through things. I don't think America is defined by bullshit, but it has a larger role in the US.

I agree with Sarah and Rachel that the fast-paced nature of the United States, and more importantly Newton South causes people to bullshit.

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Jilly Stein
02/14/2011 12:16

Like Sarah said, Frankfurt claims that there is a general lack of concern for the truth, and I agree. It's a known fact that the media lies to sell products, and people just accept it because that's just the way it is. It's weird to think that people are so used to being lied to that it has stopped phasing them completely. At the same time, being around all this bullshit will give us the ability to sift out the truth from all of the lies later in life, but it's sad that we live in a place where having this ability is so crucial.
When I think of bullshit, I think of the college process and how messed up acceptances really are. The interview days are basically over, and you just can't truly get to know someone from a piece of paper. Students present themselves in a way most appealing to colleges, even if it's not an accurate representation of their personality or achievements. This takes a highly skilled bullshitter. Newton South students are known to get accepted to the best of these colleges, so what does that say about us?

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Tony Wang
02/14/2011 13:31

I completely agree with the fact that America is becoming more and more used to bullshitting, and more and more accepting of it as well. While it may seem to go against good morals, everyone knows that it exists, and no one really speaks out against it. Perhaps it can be considered a form of "cheating," but it has now become normal in our everyday lives. Bullshitting perhaps is still more useful in an environment like school where we have standardized tests, grades, and GPAs as well as the pressure of college acceptances and whatnot. Though still useful in the real world, it probably doesn't have as much of an impact since there aren't many things that you can just bullshit your way through regardless. The nature of real life isn't like that all the time.

Which brings me to agree with Hyun/Bianca/other people who talked about the different shades of bullshitting. Perhaps the most extreme case of bullshitting is indeed in schools. Bullshitting is just a technique that many students have found useful in school, and to be honest, whatever is useful is going to be used. I find it hard pressed to say that bullshitting isn't getting more and more common these days.

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Thomas Li
02/14/2011 21:51

Frankfurt makes the argument that liars are in a certain way more acceptable than bullshitters because they recognize the truth, which he argues demonstrates the inherent respect liars hold for truth. Now, this idea seems utterly absurd to me. Admittedly, bullshitters may not know the truth, but this doesn't necessarily suggest disrespect. Consider the story of the liars. Liars may know the truth, but they actively choose to distort it to manipulate others. To me, it is quite apparent that lying, if anything, would be considered more disrespectful because you 1. neglect the truth and 2. abuse it for your advantage. Bullshitting, on the other hand, is a more innocent and ignorant response, but there exists no active, malicious goal underlying the bullshitting.

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alexandra koch
02/15/2011 06:03

I believe bs is a necessary evil in schools and communities. Although bs is bad, it doesn't make is unjustifiable. Bsing is necessary in some occasions, and the skills to learn how to bs successfully are needed to achieve in america. Although were more dependent on bsing than honesty, that doesng mean its wrong. We live in a different world now, where bsing is the norm. You just have to climb over eachother to get to the top. And if that means not being honest, that no one will be because honesty is a virtue that can hurt you back. If your too honest, people wont like you and wont want to hear from you because they know the truth hurts. And it does. Therefore, honesty has fallen flat.

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